PODCAST EPISODE 198 – HSA The Triple Tax-Free Account

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Paul 0:01

Welcome to your business your wealth. We’re your hosts, Paul Adams and Corey Shepard teach founders and entrepreneurs how to build wealth beyond their business balance sheets.

Hello, and welcome to your business, your wealth. My name is Paul Adams. And I don’t have a chance to get this wrong because we’re live streaming, as always joined by Corey, the nicest man you’ve ever met, if you have a chance to meet him, but you’ll never have the chance, because he meets everybody by zoom, of course, shepherd.

Cory 1:00

When we’re live, I noticed your voices is deeper. And I think I don’t know if it’s the sound. And I think it’s a sound interface for when we’re, we’re live, it must filter it down in insight,

Paul 1:14

scientists said it couldn’t have gotten any deeper.

Cory 1:18

Well, we haven’t.

Unknown Speaker 1:21

We’ve got

Paul 1:22

a little bit of a fun conversation today where we’re going to talk about a financial tool, like many financial tools that were designed by big box financial retail to be used a certain way. And there are ways that you can use it that are far more effective. And we’re going to go through that point by point today in how to use a health savings account. If you have a high deductible health plan. Now for some of you, you may have already done your open enrollment, you may already have made your selections for the new year and you don’t have a high deductible health plan do not tune out from this episode. The reason we don’t want you to tune out is these are going to recur. And it would be our hope that as HSA has continued to gain a tremendous amount of steam over time that we’re gonna see further and further expansion of this program. Yeah, allowing you to better be able to use your money

Cory 2:16

your way. But before we listen, listen, so you can put that Asterix in your head for the next time it flies in front of your face like the next open enrollment. Oh, is that my chance now? Ah, yes,

Paul 2:28

you can come right back to this episode. If you’re like I remember they said I should do something, and then come back this episode and take advantage of it. But before we do that, Cory this weekend planning the you know, we we get a chance to periodically see something in the news that we think is of interest or note that could have a fun conversation about what people are doing with their money. And this one is maybe one of my favorites, mainly because of the visual. So let me get this shared with our audience. Cory. Thanks. Next year is a really great picture. Hang on, clicked and everyone should see it now. We have this person who began buying Tesla he works for Amazon is what the article says later. he’s retiring at 39 years old. With 12. Millions were million worth millions. It’s a lot of millions, and a lot of millions. But he refuses to sell a single share. I had to say that slowly. She sells Tesla shares by the seashore. So here we go. He began buying Tesla just 750. Now he’s retiring at 39 years old with 12 million worth, he still refuses to sell a single share. Now, I love the picture because even Elon Musk it now of course, this is something where he was on stage and somebody said something he didn’t agree with. But I think that even Ilan might go Oh, no, that I would do that.

Cory 4:09

Like, I don’t know, it’d be curious if Ilan has an equal percentage of his wealth in Tesla. Like, comparatively speaking as this guy but even if he did it let’s go with Ilan has most of his wealth and Tesla who knows he’s put a lot of money into a lot of things. So that might be his, his Tesla holdings might be as big as pot, he can actually do things to change the value of the price and add value to the company. This fella is just buying a thing that he has no control over whatsoever. And that’s a huge, huge difference.

Paul 4:45

Well, and and let me let out of the box a little bit. Not the conspiracy theory, but maybe

Cory 4:55

the second segment says not a conspiracy theory,

Paul 4:59

but maybe I am Maybe I’m acknowledging, maybe think about how often you actually hear these stories that a person took their earnings, purchased a tech or high growth stock, and now has millions and millions of dollars worth. The reason you don’t hear that very often, but you think that you do. And I’ll explain why you think you maybe hear that more often than you do. Because most of the time we’re seeing these we see them from the early employee ease of these large tech companies. Now, there’s a big difference in somebody’s taking their hard earned dollars, where they took risk in the marketplace, in their career or in their business and then redeployed it into a very concentrated position in somebody else’s business. That’s very different than I’m working somewhere, I get a tremendous amount of stock grants and options as a part of my compensation package. Which, by the way, that’s how Elon Musk got a ton of his Tesla wealth wasn’t just in being the initial owner. But in the overwhelming amount of stock rewards he’s continued to receive as leading this company. Now, this guy is changing the world, we may look back at him in another 3040 years. And maybe we’re gonna be talking about him like we did the changes that Einstein had at the world.

Cory 6:28

But Ford is releasing an electric Mustang SUV this year. Nevermind that it’s an SUV that they’re calling a Mustang. But Ford is releasing electric guitar, electric guitar

Unknown Speaker 6:41

car

Cory 6:42

because of this guy. Because of this, because of what Ilan was doing only because of the pressure he’s putting on the on the market,

Paul 6:48

massive disruption. So when you read most of these articles, these articles are from early employees. And it’s all these stories about the wealth that they’ve created. Haven’t you ever wondered why it is there’s all these stories about all the wealth of these early employees? It’s because these tech companies depend on those stock grants and compensation packages to hire the smartest 20 and 30 year olds fresh out of school, the experience 40 something year olds have never seen a huge exit, get them to work 70 plus hours a week, live, eat, breathe, die and bleed for these companies at relatively low wages compared to what else is in the marketplace, because they’re waiting for this lottery winning. And the tech companies do everything that they can to push these stories out. Because what does it do to us as consumers? It makes us feel like, man, if we just get in one of these, we will be that person. But for every person that’s like this. They’re just like, I mean, heck, Powerball? What’s the other one? Mega Millions? Yeah, I could conceivably you, if you bought tickets could win both of them this week, totaling like $1.2 billion in cash payouts, okay. Now, when they get a chance, when people want their identities disclosed, then they say all kinds of things about this lottery winner. Why? Because they want you to see that it’d be possible for you. But what they don’t do is show you all the people who didn’t win, even though intellectually we know that there’s a truckload of people that don’t win. And in this case, we have this story of this guy. And we won’t go into a deep detail because this is just our this weekend planning segment. But consider how many people maybe just lost their tails in Tesla because they invested at a high sold at a low or all of the other companies that wanted to be Tesla like Fisker is one of the first ones that popped in my head. It was one of their earliest kind of long drive hybrids that also gave you ability to have a really clean looking sports car. They’re gone. How many of those companies had to go by the wayside to be lucky enough to have landed in Tesla one to two have held this long? And three, Korean I would like to offer a little bit of advice for this 39 year old. And here’s what it is, let’s say Tesla becomes and continues to be this world changing company. And that this $12 million grows to be I’ll be ridiculous, like 150 120 million just goes another 10 X. Okay? Yeah, just nuts. And it’s amazing. And this guy is crushing it. You see, anytime a stock, or a portfolio that we invest in, has the ability to go up really, really fast. That’s an indicator of its volatility. Now, people say they don’t like volatility, and that’s a load of garbage because we all love it, as long as volatility is upward. But that also gives you an indication of what those securities could have done on the other side, and nobody talks about that. Because they’re indicating their volatility.

Cory 10:07

This reminds me of a story we we tell about in our new book, your business, your well about a billionaire who waved at zero, going by on the way down. And, and how, you know, interviewed later, it would have been so easy for him to just pull 50 million off to the side and have a little safety net, and never

Paul 10:31

have to worry about it again.

Cory 10:33

Yes, you can never have so much that you can’t lose everything. Ooh,

Paul 10:41

hey, you can never have so much that you couldn’t lose everything. That’s brilliant. I think we should stop Wait, but just scrap the episode today, Corey, let’s

Cory 10:53

just say that 15 more days next time.

Paul 10:57

So for this person, let’s say that you just want to secure your sufficiency. And what you did was carve off $4 million. Okay, just carve out $4 million, that you put that in academically allocate a globally diversified portfolio and secure some of that sufficiency. Now, let’s look forward, what would happen if the stock does go these 10 x from where it is now. And you grow to 120 million like, oh, now you only grow to 80 million. Now, here’s the thing, the difference between and this is why we want to have accurate thinking with our money. We want to be able to look forward and just have a reasonable conversation about what outcomes are most important to us. So he’s able to set aside $4 million, and Tesla goes to 80 million. Do you think you notice a big difference in your lifestyle in the difference between 80 million and 120? million? No, I don’t think so either. Like I think you’re pretty like, maybe you go, Oh, I’d love to get the $20 million yacht, but I need to I’m on a budget, I can only get a $12 million yacht, that would be the kind of conversation you would have to have. But you would never be totally wiped out. And let’s look at the other end. What if Tesla became one of the many companies that are amazing innovators make a tremendous difference for the world. But don’t make the iterative changes required to be a long lasting top of the heap company for the next 100 years. And that’s much more likely to occur with any company that it is that they’re going to continue to skyrocket the way that Tesla has. So this person could set some money aside, secure their sufficiency, if it goes to the moon, they still have all the money going to the moon. But they also make sure they never lose their home. They make sure they never have to go back to work. Now they continue to work because they want to and they’ve secured their financial independence, rather than just continuing to let it ride on Tesla, ad infinitum. Because somebody who’s made this big of a statement, there are articles written nationwide about this person. Now, what what does that do to you mentally? That idea of commitment consistency where you keep acting in a certain direction? Like what’s the likelihood that it would make sense to them to then take some chips off the table when it’s 25 million when it’s 40 million? Because not only were they quote unquote, right, in retrospect. But then you’ve also made all these public declarations not just to your friends and family, but also to the world because of some of these articles. Yeah, very, very unlikely that it goes to 120 million. And but even if it did, he could secure sufficiency and still have 80 million at the end of the day. So that is this week in news this week in planning, and a little bit of news. So let’s get back to this idea of the HSA and how you can use it to secure more triple tax free income well out into your future. You see what many people do when they get an HSA is they take money because they have a High Deductible Health Savings Plan, which Cory is going to go more into in a moment. And then you can open this health savings account and put money into it on a tax deductible basis. Now, what many people do and what every financial institution is happy to do is give you a debit card that you can swipe at the pharmacy, you can swipe at your doctor, or you could just pay your medical bills with any old credit card and ask for reimbursement tax free from your HSA. That’s the way they Want us to use these accounts? But here’s the question, and they have

Cory 15:05

a nice, the nice debit card, the cool looking HSA debit card. So you’re like, Oh, I’m at CVS, yep, swipe, swipe, swipe. And if you mix, if you put a little Dr Pepper in there, they’re probably not gonna notice that maybe, no, they actually are really good at flagging it on those receipts for what’s HSA eligible. So don’t try that one, just want to get that out in advance, you’re not going to get away with it.

Paul 15:28

I say try to buy a Dr. Pepper. So, but that we all these financial tools designed by a financial institution somewhere else. And we, by default, just use those tools, the way they told us would be the best way to use it. And we’re going to offer a different interpretation today. But before we do that, Cory, could you take a few minutes just go through the basics of HSA? for anybody who’s curious or has had long lasting questions about it.

Cory 15:57

And this is important, because a lot of folks have heard that term, but I don’t think the cot there’s common knowledge about what it actually means. And this is why I know this, try to type HSA into any of your word processors online, on your computer or otherwise. And it and it flips it into capital H A. S, every flippin time I’m trying to tell clients about HSA is and type on the screen. And it and I can’t so common knowledge yet. We’ve I’ve

Paul 16:28

even had meetings with high level Microsoft people, as clients, and even they’re like, yeah, we have the same problem. Like what? Like, you guys have that problem? Why can’t you just fix it for all of us, please? They’re like, we don’t know where that is. We’re not even sure that Microsoft so big, we don’t even know what department that guy’s in.

Cory 16:52

There’s someone there just messing with us. He just has this little office, it’s like office space, the guy with a stapler? Yeah, he’s just down there, like, Oh, I was HSS HA, HA is. So you number one, to be able to open one of these accounts and put money into it, you have to have a high deductible health plan. So that’s an insurance, health insurance policy that has, at minimum, a 20 $800 deductible as of 2020. I don’t know what the the 2021 changed yet, but it probably didn’t change that much. Now, many of them are going to be higher. And the higher the deductible, the lower your premium, we see a lot of folks with higher deductibles in the five or $7,000 range. Now you put money into the HSA pre tax similar to an IRA 2021. The limits 3600 for an individual or 7200. If you’re on a family plan, that money grows tax deferred, like IRA or 401k. This is where the similarities stop. Because pre 65, not 59 and a half like the other IRA or 401k accounts pre 65, you can take out money for medical expenses with no tax, and no penalty. There is a 20% penalty for non medical use, which don’t skip over though, the 10% of Dr. Pepper has a 20% penalty.

Paul 18:21

If you spend if you take money out to buy the Dr. Pepper, there’s a 20% penalty on that. So not the 10% penalty of our areas, but 20 plus taxes.

Cory 18:35

And what’s curious as it used to be 10%, just like all the other tax deferred accounts, but the Affordable Care Act, increase that to 20% to help pay for the financials of the Affordable Care Act, Bill. So just a curious thing about how the all those different things intersect and come together. So post 65, again, not 59 and a half, like the other accounts, you can take the money out for any reason and just pay the tax on it. Or it’s still tax free for medical medical reasons. You can pay long term care insurance premiums from from an HSA that are hand marked pay Medicare premiums. Yeah, in part, yeah, I can’t get paid. But not not supplements. You can’t pay for supplements or Medigap policies, but the Medicare Part B. And then the deadline for contributions is April 15. For the year before, so April 15 2021, to get all of your 2020 in or when you file taxes. So So that’s the basic

Paul 19:48

basics, the basic framework, and you could see why most people say I’ll put in my 7200 and I just pulled the money right back out. I was even guilty that I remember one year I had 20 20 medical bills, because I had gotten that Invisalign type stuff. I think we use clear correct or whatever my dentist used straight down my teeth, paid for all of that from my HSA. I didn’t have any money, my HSA at that moment. So what I did when the bills were due, I went and contributed to my HSA paid the bill and their reimbursement from my HSA, which made all of those dental things tax deductible in effect. Now, we brought in Jeff Miller

Cory 20:34

now really good in that moment.

Paul 20:36

Yes, no question. No question, right. So Jeff Miller joined our firm about three years ago, you guys have heard from him on meet a Millionaire Next Door. And this is a gentleman who had built his financial life in a way that he was at financial independence, just he and his wife didn’t know that, until they became clients to really realize that they could stop working, and they could be over the line in capital at work to never have to worry about working again. And yet they both continued to do so because they love the work that they do. Now, I was explaining the use of the HSA to clients. And it took Jeff about six months. And this is the problem. Sometimes the more you know about money, the harder it is to learn some a new strategy with existing financial tool, including us. It took about six months of him just saying, Paul, I think there’s a better way, I think that he finally drew it out for me. And that’s what we’re gonna lay out today. You see, there’s a difference between using your HSA to pay medical bills and using your HSA to reimburse you for medical bills now, because so many people relate to it, the first way to pay my medical bills is why they miss out on this opportunity. But there’s also this reimbursement component. Now, why is that important? I just told the story about how I contributed and was reimbursed in the following year for my 2020 or not, that wasn’t 20. That was 2018. I think were those medical bills. But we don’t have to take the reimbursement now. You see what they did in the code is they all they said is as long as the year you had the medical expense, you also had a high deductible health plan. You can request reimbursement for medical expenses during that year. With no, there’s no timer on that meaning you could make a contribution to your HSA today at 35. put 70 $200 in and you also have 70 $200 in medical bills of all forms now to speak to what Cory said that means things that wouldn’t normally be paid for by health insurance, things like maybe certain chiropractor visits, extra natural path bloodwork, dental expenses, prescription, pharmacy massage, all that stuff. falls under this dangerous a reimbursement band aids and with little kids. We go through a ton of those. I’m gonna have you advocate soon.

Cory 23:17

Yeah, I know. This one’s only Mm hmm.

Paul 23:21

Yep. And those are just for Cory. We’ll see what his daughter wants. So if we, right. So if we have these HSA expenses, we could wait two years, five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years to be reimbursed. So think about this. We think about certain kinds of financial tools like a Roth IRA, non tax deductible on the front end after tax it goes in, but we get the benefit of it growing tax free and take it out tax free. an IRA, we get to deduct when it goes in. Then it grows tax deferred, we have to pay all the taxes later, we delayed both the tax and the calculation of the tax. This is the magic of the HSA, the Health Savings Account itself. We get the tax deducted when it goes in. It grows with no taxes on it. And we can distribute the money out tax free. Show me another tool that can do that. Under the current tax code where you’re not breaking any rules.

Cory 24:31

This is a big mess. We really should have had that wrestler Triple H like a picture of him and then oh yeah, done with triple tax or

Paul 24:43

Triple H tax free. What do we post that clip? Jordan, let’s make sure we get Triple H in there. Hey, we could probably have him on the podcast. I don’t think I don’t think he’s up too much. So we we have this triple tax rehears Yeah, go ahead.

Cory 25:00

Yeah, well, I think that thing you said, that’s just blows it all open, Jeff is one who said is that the year that you have the expense is not the year that you need to ask to be reimbursed for that expense, right. And it’s something like you don’t 20 years from now, you need $10,000. For something, you just go find $10,000 worth of receipts to generate that tax free withdrawal. And then you maybe you don’t spend all of it because what we calculated if you started doing the family, Max now, for 30 years, never took any money out and got a percent a year, you’d have something like almost $900,000 in there. Yep, you probably didn’t have $900,000 worth of health care expenses over the last 30 years. But as you get older, those are going to come back around and go up by a lot. So you have plenty of tax free reasons to want to spend money on health care, on down down the line. And see, we’ve been able to compound this whole time now.

Paul 26:04

And here’s the beauty of after age 65. You say you’re in retirement, remember to be reimbursed for old expenses, you need to have a high deductible healthcare plan in that year, but if you’re just paying your regular medical bills and your old age, which I think on average is estimated to be about a quarter million dollars for your average retiree under current medical costs, which are not currently going down.

Cory 26:28

Yeah. Then Yeah. And then over there,

Paul 26:32

yes, over their life. And so that gives us the ability to really use all of that money tax free. Oh, here’s, we’re gonna get to the mechanics of this in a second. But just really quick, this is kind of about the state feel like wow, this is really good. And, and you guys are saying something that I didn’t realize was the case. If you are thinking that we’re teaching some things here, that could be valuable to you reach out to us, you can reach out to us on either social platforms, LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook, or just email us info at SF g way that sound Financial Group way.com. And we’d be happy to come alongside you see if any of this works for you, and really find out whether or not it would even make sense to work with a firm like ours.

Cory 27:18

But with that Jordans, got a link, Jordans got a link in the show notes, where you can schedule a 15 minute call with someone on our team as well.

Paul 27:25

So if you if you don’t, you aren’t to talk to us that if you don’t want to talk to us, like, subscribe, share, like, fine, you’re getting all this information for free. The least everybody could do subscribe to this sucker. Because otherwise there’s a box of kittens in my basement. I’m not, I’m not sure what’s gonna happen to them. If you don’t, Cory

Cory 27:47

was gonna say you are one of the best I’ve ever seen at having a strategy for organizing information. You’re the original Evernote Ninja, and you’ve got some great strategies for folks like how am I gonna keep track of all these, these receipts and all these things? Please it it’s the

Paul 28:06

air sensei. This is about the easiest thing in the world to do, because that’s the next thing when we explain the strategy like how am I supposed to track my medical bills from 20 years ago, technology has made this so easy. You no longer have to have like a file folders with each year where you’ve stuffed your receipts. When you finish it, the doctor, they’re always giving you a printout or they send you something in the mail after all you need to do is one or two things just get a free Evernote account. Or, you know, many people use Dropbox or any of these other tools. All you do is just create a file folder for medical expenses. And underneath that just put each year take snaps right from your phone. You don’t need paper receipts for this. Just snap it right from your phone’s camera, drop it in that folder and you never have

Unknown Speaker 28:51

to think about it again. It’s like

Paul 28:52

one little tiny habit to build the could mean it Cory mentioned that 70 to $100. We got a question in the chat. What qualifies for max contribution, husband wife counts as a family, you don’t even need to have children to have the 70 $200 max. So you could put away 70 $200 a year if you’re in an 8% rate of return, which you could because you could just thrive on being the most aggressive portfolio you want because it’s gonna be 30 years and beyond. And then the thing I think about Korea be well, let’s say I just want the money earlier, you want to buy a family cabinet. It’s like Where can I find $400,000 Oh, there it is. Mainly because I have three kids, one of which named Reagan is not the most cautious probably going to reach the max on her more than once over the years.

Cory 29:43

And so what we’re gonna have the but if you’re saying is, I want to buy a cabin. So first, I’m going to get Reagan rollerblades.

Paul 29:53

Funny enough. They are taking a big interest in hockey right now. And maybe that’s the key to my cabin. So If what we could do is just organize all those medical bills, then all we need to do we want to deploy the money, will you take it out, now this goes back. And this might be a good way for us to sort of land the conversation today. Oh, I totally forgot to tell people. After you get just a little bit of cash in most of these HSA accounts, they will give you the option to build a portfolio. So you can be invested in the market with your HSA that entire time, it doesn’t just have to sit in cash. Although everybody proposes initially, it’ll be from HSA bank, or optim, bank or whatever it is. And they don’t exactly push the information to you that you could invest that money, they’re perfectly happy to be like a regular bank giving you low interest, and then they make their money on the back end, in the way they redeploy our capital. So in this case, we take control that you’re not we, Sam Financial Group, we, as the consumer take control that and you can invest it there, we don’t invest HSS, but we guide our clients on how best to deploy the capital that’s in them. Okay. So you now have the ability as a result of this episode, to have an account, that you can deduct the contributions, that you can grow with no taxes on it, that you can take out some of the money way before retirement age, as long as you have reimbursable expenses saved from prior years.

Cory 31:29

And

Paul 31:30

I don’t want to forget this, because Jeff will call me out on it if I don’t, is that many of you actually get a summary every year from your health insurance company of all the bills you paid and all the bills they paid. If you get that, take a snap of it and throw it into your folder as well. Okay, now, for all of you out there listening, what we want to do is make sure we are always coming alongside you always trying to add value. And we’ve got a little special one today we talked about Make sure to like, subscribe, share these episodes. But if you just give us a review on iTunes, take a screenshot of it send it to us. I think Cory Cory has gotten on me before about this, but we will send you that we’re good now to do this. Okay, good. He’ll, you guys will notice some of our end cards. cord got on me because I was giving away the book before I should have given away the book. But you could get this book, you’re

Cory 32:27

gonna have a you know, I had the I had

Paul 32:30

one of those author copies that’s good enough for me to tell people they could order it. So what you do is you just give us a review, take a screenshot of it, send it to [email protected]. With your address and a picture of the screenshot, we will send you a copy of our latest book, your business, your wealth, and what it takes for business owners to build a balance sheet that’s as strong as their business to keep them financially independent, long after they no longer own that business. So with that, Corey, anything you want to tell everybody before we jump off today.

Cory 33:06

Now this is I’m excited for the upcoming episodes we’ve got, you know, I’ll be out on daddy duty for a few weeks. And Paul’s got a great interview going back into the world of real estate. So I’m excited for you all to and just, you know, sign up for the live stream, keep tabs on them. Send me a note on what’s going on in case I need to be worried that helped me out here. Good idea.

Paul 33:30

That’s all right on Well, for all of you out there. Everybody gets a chance to join us on these live streams. Those of you that listen offline later, we appreciate you. We love being able to contribute to you guys and we love that you tune in. And we hope that this episode like every episode has been a contribution to you being able to design and build a good life.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

 

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