PODCAST EPISODE 197 – Grandpa Said Invest In Gold


Grandpa always said, “gold is the best place to put your money”. However, if you have invested in gold, did you know what it would cost you to sell it when you purchased it? Over time, has gold truly out beat inflation? Is crypto-currency the new gold of the 40’s? as the price of gold escalates, Paul and Cory tackle tons of gold-related questions and talking points in how it should pertain to your investment strategy.


  • 00:00 – Show begins.
  • 00:35 – Paul welcomes listeners.
  • 05:34 – Why is gold popular for investing?
  • 09:45 – playing out a gold investment narrative.
  • 17:13 – Why gold isn’t actually a good hedge against inflation.
  • 21:35 – gold, taxation, and its cost.
  • 25:10 – gold and crypto.
  • 31:14 – How to connect with Sound Financial Group.
  • 33:11 – Show ends, thank you for listening.


[Tweet “It doesn’t matter when we are… there is always someone rationalizing: ‘this could be it, this could be the time your fortunes are lost, this could be the time for financial collapse, and therefore gold is going to go through the roof’ #YourBusinessYourWealth”]

[Tweet “With gold, you get all of the volatility of equities with none of the benefits  of fixed income #YourBusinessYourWealth”]

[Tweet “Gold and cryptocurrency are similar in a large way. These commodities have total variant values that we cannot predict. #YourBusinessYourWealth”]


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Contains a sample of “King” by Zayde Wølf courtesy of Lyric House.

Full Episode Transcription


Paul 0:01

Welcome to your business, your wealth. We’re your hosts, Paul Adams and Corey Shepard teach founders and entrepreneurs how to build wealth beyond their business balance sheets.

Unknown Speaker 0:34

Hello, everyone.

Paul 0:35

Welcome to your business, your wealth livestream with our absolutely esteemed colleague, your friend, the person you tune in for, not the guy that’s sitting in front of my microphone, but the guy that’s sitting in front of his Corey Shepard,

Cory 0:56

our our colleague, I like, I like that,

Paul 0:59

well. Here’s the thing. We’re all in this work together to build strong balance sheets, have a great life, all of that. So we are our clients colleagues in this. I gotta get that I was gonna say like, it’s difficult. It’s confusing. There’s so much information out there so few places to get good information. And, you know, I think this podcast is one of those places that at least has people begin to think about money. Which brings us to our topic today.

Cory 1:29

Oh, and by the way, Happy 2021 just got to throw that.

Unknown Speaker 1:33

Oh, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:33

this is our first year. Mm hmm.

Unknown Speaker 1:36

Yeah. Now, I

Paul 1:38

didn’t want to tell everybody but we’re gonna do the first 24 hour financial Live Stream Map, right? No, no, starting now. I’m starting now. Cory, I didn’t tell you ahead of time. We’re just gonna keep going. Jordan’s cleared his calendar. So for everybody that Jordan normally works with he’s calling in sick today don’t tell.

Cory 1:58

Actually, we just we’re not we don’t have to clear our calendars. Every every client that we meet with today is just going to find out your

Paul 2:07

you can cancel if you want. Wouldn’t that be something there’s a client watching right now probably texting me like we’re not really gonna be live. And, and if they do, I’m gonna text him back and go, I’ll let you know. Well, today’s topic is kind of fun. We’re going to be talking about gold. And there’s been this recent run up in gold. There’s obvious talks of other sort of hard currencies like crypto currencies. But it kind of what I want to start this episode off with is to show you guys this is about four and a half, five ounces of gold. This was actually collected and mined by me and my father, when I was kid, and my father passed away near the end of 2017. But one of the things that man always said to me was, gold is the best place you can put your money. Gold is the greatest investment gold is real money. You know, and he grew it. My dad was born in 1929. He was 50 years old when I was born. So what my father told me might be the same thing that your grandparents told you. Was that gold is one of the best places to put money.

Cory 3:24

Remember, hold on I’m gonna check my grandpa’s Birthday One second. It’s it’s back here.

Paul 3:32

He’s got he’s got something framed on his wall back there. important enough to frame but not important enough for him to remember

Cory 3:38

1933 if you just made a joke about my grandpa, you’re gonna No no, no, I

Paul 3:45

just said I said simply I said is his his grandfather’s birthday. It’s important enough to frame on the wall. Not enough to remember

Cory 3:53

what was the like in 1933 was when when he was was born. So they they were compatriots so patriots. This is this is my grandfather’s life insurance policy framed on the wall behind me. He passed away and I was helping my mom with all of his effects and financials and realize that he was the age when he got that life insurance policy. He was as old as I was when he died. Oh my gosh, I feel connection Yeah. Wow.

Paul 4:29

Well, thank you as always for taking my not quite totally inappropriate joke and following it with a sincere story that makes my joke totally inappropriate. The other joke that I told while you were there as I was like, hey, look out trim quarries get none he looks good back there the full body shot.

Cory 4:47

I mean, back

Unknown Speaker 4:48

backtrack the camera.

Cory 4:48

special camera that subtracts 10 pounds. I still feel a little over the edge from the holidays, I’ll admit but

Paul 4:56

what you know what, one thing before we get into gold I think is important to talk about is like, you know how your, when you start lifting weights a bunch, your pants get kind of tight in the thighs as your those big muscles start to get larger. Mine are pretty tight, but it’s because I’m getting fat. I’ve really focused on that in 2020 gained some serious poundage. I’m thinking I might carry it through 2021 part of my new year’s resolutions just nothing but biscuits and gravy 20%

Cory 5:25

You know, they’re like, Oh, it’s all about the gains all about the gains, bro. You know,

Paul 5:29

dude, I can make some gains with some biscuits and gravy. Alright, so for those of you listening, we are talking gold, and a little fun to get everybody on the live stream. But why is this gold? so valuable? Why is it important? Why do people look at it as a hedge against inflation? Those are all questions for you, Cory?

Cory 5:50

Well, you know, gold has that. tangibility. You know, I’ve been I’m reading a book called debt that talks about the human history of money and credit and markets and interactions. And gold was super useful as coinage back in the day because it was really portable. And it was scarce. So it was valuable. It’s hard to get you had to dig it out of the ground,

Paul 6:18

where you remember the pirates would bite it to see if it was real because you couldn’t get Oh,

Cory 6:22

yeah, gold, right. So Incidentally, gold coins largely sprouted up around war and armies because soldiers needed a highly portable way to get paid. And so gold coins made it really easy for these kingdoms to pay their pay their soldiers. And so all of that deep human history has filtered up through the years to end You know, our dollar used to be attached to a standard of value that was pegged to gold, gold, the gold standard that now we’re off of that, but we still have this sense that you know, gold, it’s shiny, it’s beautiful. It’s scarce, it must it has some intrinsic value. But unless you’re designing I don’t know some kind of particular electronics that the power of the properties of gold are useful. It really only has the value that we say that it has because everyone else thinks that shares that interpretation

Paul 7:22

will end and I’ll show you how I think compelling gold can be as an emotional tool. So cereal box Corey this box is the same box with this little foam liner inside of it that my dad built for my entire life is where he’s kept his gold at different times this was in a file box it’s in a safe now for me, but I just found something else in here that my mom will be mortified that I brought this up on the live stream. So

Cory 7:57

why do you have a live stream show? If other than for a chance to modify here mom on occasion on occasion at

Paul 8:04

least so this is an actual tooth of my mom’s I’m not sure why this made it in the box. Like look at the roots on that thing but it actually had a gold crown. So there’s a gold crown so mom if you’re watching dad save that I’ve got in the box Am I safe? Let me get this put back in here. I thought about pouring some of this gold out on my hand. But with the price of gold right now. I didn’t think I could afford to have some

Cory 8:29

expensive sneeze Yeah. Oh

Paul 8:31

my gosh, could you imagine? It’s like a $2,000 sneeze so that’s so current price of gold right now and we could we could look at the screen here if we want Jordan. We’ve got current price January 5 $1,941. Now when my dad was preaching this stuff to me as a kid, it was like he was back here in like the 80s like I mean look at that like gold was for 28 ounce gold was 560 an ounce like I remember these bumps in gold when my dad and I we would do gold panning. That was the type of placer mining that we did. And placer I guess is this kind of gold. So is gold pan, sluice boxes etc.

Cory 9:22

They just named that after placer Placer County Placerville California.

Paul 9:29

I’m pretty sure Placerville California got the name from this type of mining.

Cory 9:32

Okay, the other way around.

Paul 9:34

Yep. So, but when we look we can see it like oh my gosh, look at this. Like let’s just we’ll take a moment here and play with the idea of what let’s say back in 1982. Good long term strategy that’s almost 40 years. Did that right deny in my head? So let’s say we got this low price in 1982 of 320. out, and then we’re going to carry it through today. Let’s see 82 to mid 2000 is 39 years. Cory do that, right?

Cory 10:10

Sounds about right. It’s close enough for me. Okay, so

Paul 10:13

we’re just gonna do a quick efficiency calculator and see what that grew to. So we had $338. Future asset value today is 1941. Now, we’re not even talking about some of the problems that exist with gold, for instance, it’s not very easy to buy or sell at spot. That’s the price of gold per ounce. You always have a dealer, somebody that’s taking something every time that gold changes hands, right.

Cory 10:42

Also, we’ll talk about taxes in a minute. They’re not great.

Paul 10:46

So we have a 4.58% return. Now, Cory, what is it people say about gold? It’s a good What kind of hedge inflation hedge

Cory 10:57

Mm hmm.

Paul 10:58

And its growth for the last 39 years has been a little bit better than inflation.

Cory 11:03

So we could say that’s not wrong. It’s not wrong.

Paul 11:07

I think it is very true that it is an inflation hedge. But we just have to take a minute to figure out how useful is having an inflation hedge? Now? I will say that one of the things that comes up most often is like what if our world economic banking system ends? You know, I’m, I’m one of those people. We’ve talked about it before that I’m in a pocket optimist. I’m pretty sure everything’s gonna go bad at one point, but that’s when I’m going to thrive. So I have an army ready. Yeah. And I hope it shows up soon. Well, I remember at the beginning of COVID, people were running out to the stores and doing all and people like, oh, Paul, what are you doing, I was like, nothing different. We got like a whole shelf full of food in the garage. That wasn’t that expensive to get. It wasn’t it’s not very difficult to maintain. And a bunch of water in the garage. I was like, we’ll be okay. That’s the part that I think is most attractive about gold is it, it could it This could be it. Now, by the way, it doesn’t matter when we are, there’s always somebody saying this could be it. This could be the time that your fortunes are lost. This is the time that it could cost you everything. This is the time the government has printed more money than ever and therefore, gold is going to go through the roof. Or Bitcoin is going to go through the roof or you name some other commodity oil, etc. Each of these are a commodity in which people transact

Cory 12:42

tulip bulbs,

Paul 12:44

tulips. Yes, well, that speaks to it is like at least with a tulip. You had some utility. For instance, you could put it in the ground and grow tulip. Now, you may have significantly overpaid for it. You bought it as a commodity up Cory, do you want to pull them up? Anybody that’s not familiar with tulip? Yeah,

Cory 13:02

they just look up the you know, tulip bulbs, Holland. Gosh, nominated. I can’t remember if it’s been hundreds or 1600s, something like that. And I’m gonna look it up price of a tulip bulb went from what you would expect in hundreds to buy a tulip bulb for these days, like some pocket change to the price of a you know, two bedroom townhouse in just a few years. Hmm, like the equivalent of it. So one two above, could buy you a townhouse for so crazy, crazy crazy. And it was just all about market supply and demand now, gold, there is a benefit ago, this is another one. You plant some gold in the ground. Come back in a year and you want you got some gold. Like it doesn’t degrade as valuable. It doesn’t degrade. So that there is some some utility there.

Paul 14:01

Yeah, it has sustainability. But the idea of like, I have gold, I can’t eat it. I can’t. I may be able to transact with it. But for those of you that are buying gold coins, I want you to think about this for a moment. Let’s say I have a two ounce gold coin right now. That two ounce gold coins worth a little under $4,000. Today, let’s say the entire financial system the United States collapses such that gold becomes a favor transacting tool. If that were to happen, what do you think price of gold is per ounce? The day that happens? It ain’t going down. It would go way up right. So your two ounce gold coin. You know, what do you need to do buy a limousine? a Bugatti Veyron right? A house. Like that’s not a for the sake of transacting. It’s a terrible transaction tool. If it became our primary tool and enormously valuable, or as I’ve said to people, if you are saving up gold for the sake of saving your portfolio in the long run as your inflation hedge, you may get some good returns out of it periodically. But you would also go through tremendous periods of time with no return. So I’ll take that to our chart here, Cory? Yeah. So you could have owned gold as a commodity, even if you bought that low price in 1982. And then just let me kind of roll forward here. And let’s see, when we get back to that three, what is it 338

Cory 15:39

right there, and

Paul 15:42

there we go right about here. So that took until 2002. So like 20 years, 20 years of no return in this asset that our grandparents told us would be the best possible asset to own, not so much. Now, you might if if, for instance, you could have an academically allocated globally diversified portfolio that also had spot gold in it, like some ETF, something that reflects the spot price of gold for you and your portfolio, you would have probably had some gains, because you would have rebalanced against this so this goes back to why we want academically allocated globally diversified portfolios, because even in this 20 years, you would have been when it was down further, you would have rebalanced to gold when it went up, you would have rebalanced out of gold and bought more equities. So you would have had some better returns because you would have been balancing in and out of gold.

Cory 16:39

But then let’s remember, sorry, you finish finish here, that

Paul 16:42

was gonna say like, let’s say somebody said, Hey, this is a fixed income asset that you should buy, it does four and a half percent over a 20 year period. Oh, but it’s it’s not liquid, there’s some bad tax consequences, Cory is going to talk about in a second. It’s not heavily liquid. And it’s this kind of volatility, nobody would pick that as their fixed income or bond like asset in their portfolio. So you get all of the volatility of equities with none of the benefits of fixed income.

Cory 17:13

Well, and so let’s not forget that and inflation hedge, the reason people need to hedge against inflation is because they need to buy stuff with their money. And inflation makes that money worth less, less value over time. So the assumption here is that you’re not just letting that all sit that whole whole time, there’s some amount of money you need to spend. So just for instance, if someone had 100 grand in a 1982, and they put that all on gold, to hedge against inflation, they’re gonna need to take some money out of that overtime, and there was some fluctuation in that value. So it didn’t do perfectly for them as an inflation hedge. I think, now, we’re not recommending this, this is not our secret sauce. This is we’ve never told the client to do this. But they took that 100 grand and just put half of it in cash, and half of it in a diversified portfolio. They probably do better than the net result of gold over that 20 year period.

Paul 18:07

Well, and in all the times that gold has acted as a quote unquote, inflation hedge, what else tends to go up with inflation? Oh, equities and real estate? Like, wait, wait a second, like those all go up? Also? Like, could those companies have a difficult time? Yeah. But their share price of those stocks also goes up as inflation goes up. Not all stocks because each individual equity has its own, you know, that Tesla, if they make a big mistake in the marketplace, it will be affected because of its own decisions, not just inflation overall, but an academically allocated globally diversified portfolio will pick up some of those attributes of equity prices increasing, just like the cost of everything increases in inflationary environment, not just gold. Now, now, if you’re talking about taxes, almost, I’ve got to say the one thing that I do love most is that if you are buying gold, because you think the world is going to fall apart, you may want to consider investing in both brass and lead. And I was going to demonstrate one of the delivery systems for the brass and lead. Corey said I wasn’t allowed to do it on a live stream said YouTube would take us down Facebook would censor us. And as a result, you guys don’t get to see one of those brass and lead delivery systems. But if it really goes all that bad, like economic markets break down, the police can’t be paid, the fire department can’t be paid. You’ve got issues that are far beyond your ability to transact with gold. And it’s a little bit it’s a I don’t know, this is kind of a inappropriate joke. I’ll tell it anyway since I almost told it. If you guys ever seen the meme of like the enormous Li obese prepper, he’s got like a bandolero of ammunition, a bunch of food behind him, you know, an AR 15. And it’s like, prepped it for the world ending, but has a difficult time climbing a flight of stairs. That is sometimes what I feel like when people go man, it could all end I need to have a lot of money in gold, but they don’t even have the basic components of planning for their financial independence, becoming independent from the work that they have to do. They’re worried about the oppression that could exist for them and their family should the world fall apart, which I can certainly appreciate. But that is the point 00000, you know, one likelihood that the world falls apart and our economic system goes away all that the the statistic that’s 99.99, some high percent likely is you will get too old one day, to be able to provide an income by transacting the marketplace via job or business. It’s normal, everybody eventually gets aged out of the marketplace. And while they’re planning for this incredibly small likelihood of this outcome, there’s incredibly small likelihood that the world falls apart. Meanwhile, not planning for the incredibly high likelihood that they’re going to live in old age. And if they don’t take care of their balance sheet, the very family they were looking to protect they will be living with. Okay, carry on on that light note. Let’s talk taxation. Well, and oh, King of the Segway over here.

Cory 21:38

We’ll come back to I think, Paul, yeah, I haven’t talked to you about this, but my reading about the history of economies and currencies, like we’re gonna have to do an episode on on that, because, you know, it wasn’t it wasn’t just a barter economy before we had coins. It was a credit economy. It was a communities taking care of each other. And they had most times in human history. They didn’t even keep a ledger, because it’s just like you’re in this tiny town of 50 100 people and someone needs something, you’re going to help them out because you know, they’re going to help you out later. Like humanity comes back to those kinds of economies even when everything goes to goes to crap. So I don’t need to invest in brass and lead. I just need to invest in friends who’ve invested in brass and and let it be.

Paul 22:25

I can’t tell you how often I hear that Corey, right.

Cory 22:28

I know. But you see, you’re no good to me right now you’re 1000s of miles away. So I’ve got to find ya find my people out here. Good luck in Chicago. So taxes. Gold has a disadvantage over things like equities and real estate because you don’t get the benefit of capital gains. And then the taxation of gold is income taxation whenever you wherever you sell it now, maybe you know, the IRS is probably listening because we’re really getting our viewership growing. Gold might be easier to sell without actually having a record of it. So maybe whatever choices you want.

Paul 23:11

But if you’re transacting in in large enough sums, like do you need to offload $50,000 worth of gold that will get reported? That will get you far less you’re dealing with somebody that’s irrefutable. And do you really want to be like, Hey, I’ll bring you $50,000 worth of this precious metal in return for you having a knapsack full of cash. No, nope, not the deal I’m signing up for

Cory 23:35

and that and that commission to a dealer What? Three to 5% of the value probably something like that. Yeah, they need to make their money on your side and have enough margin to sell it again on the other side.

Paul 23:49

Here’s one of the biggest things I bet most people listening who have gold or have bought gold or have thought about buying gold. I would bet you dimes to doughnuts and I would love it if somebody chatted in Did you look at what it’s going to cost you to sell it like Do you know what you would receive at 1943 if you went down to the local jewelry store that would pay for it or the rare coin place it would pay for it? Like go down there and say hey with spot price of gold if I brought you in this many krugerrands that are 24 ounce gold would you What would you pay me for them and and learn what the difference is? So you know what? It’s gonna cost you to exit the vehicle you got into. People aren’t thinking about that. Now, this might be a good time maybe topping off this episode if you’re okay with it, Korea. Just a little bit on the cryptocurrencies. Now. They’ve gone so much through the roof, because it’s like the gold that our grandpa would have talked about if they would have if it would have been around at that point. Of course, yes, because it’s gone. It’s gone unbelievably through the roof since its inception in the early 2000s. So Why is that? Well, it has attributes similar to gold, there is a limited amount. Now, unlike with gold, we don’t exactly know where the limit is because it’s all inside the earth. Elan Musk is talked about mining asteroids and bringing a trillion dollars with a gold back to Earth. That that may happen, which, incidentally, the price of oil, I was just thinking the same thing. But all that to say, it’s limited, we don’t know how much gold is limited. And it takes effort to extract so those contribute to Gold’s value? Well, similarly things like Bitcoin and aetherium that I won’t speak for any other cryptocurrencies also have a limited amount. And based on how the algorithm works, it gets sufficiently more difficult to mine that value. The only difference is for those of you not familiar with cryptocurrencies, it’s computers closing out complex equations on something called the blockchain, which we’re not going to go into today. But it’s those things, its scarcity and demand that drives the value. Now, I’m not one to say people shouldn’t have any gold, for instance, I have some. It’s, instead, it’s not meant to be an investing strategy. It’s meant to be a commodity that we would hold maybe, like you might hold if you were some kind of major investor or other commodities, people like Southwest Airlines years ago bought a bunch of options on oil that kept their fuel costs lower than every other competitor for like half a decade. As a result of them, seeing a future and commodities, and they were effectively insuring against increased prices. with gold, all you’re doing is maybe flagging some value of the dollar, if 35% of the world’s or the US as wealth just got printed in these trillions of dollars of relief packages. Well, then if it’s a straight line comparison, gold should go up 30%. But it’s not because what affects gold is what affects any individual commodity or stock. News, new things we don’t know today will affect that price. And those things are outside of our control. So if we’re going to be in gold, well, I’m a fan, we’ve run into clients all the time have a little bit of cryptocurrency have a little bit of gold somewhere, we don’t tell them run out and sell it. We simply say make it an appropriate part of your portfolio, maybe for emergencies, maybe for some other problem. But if you want to put 10 or 20 or $30,000 in as appropriate for you at your level of financial wherewithal, but if what you think is I’m going to have a little bit of money I’m going to put into cryptocurrency or gold, which cryptocurrencies certainly feels much more accessible to people than gold because we have 500 bucks you can go get some cryptocurrency $500 isn’t going to get you much gold. And so people are getting a chance to participate in what this this marketplace that feels perhaps like it felt to my father having gold. But in reality, what we’re doing is we’re acquiring a commodity. And that commodity has totally variant values that we cannot predict. Like, who would have predicted that gold would have a 0% rate of return for 20 years? Nobody? Certainly not to people selling you the gold. Could cryptocurrency continue to go to the moon? Sure. But should you take a significant part of your net worth and put it in any individual security or commodity hoping that the future works out? No.

And it might like there are people have made tons of money on Bitcoin, there are tons of people who made a lot of money in some of these other tools. Now you don’t see that in gold. But I think it’s largely because it’s it’s both like think about what you mentioned earlier Corey, about the value of gold, you know, back in medieval times, and kings and queens and how they would pay the armies because it wasn’t you know, you could paint a whole army with a little chest full of gold, you didn’t need to, you know, have a caravan of grain to pay all of your people, right? The same way. Bitcoin and aetherium are all lighter and easier to transport than gold and may become more valuable. We’re all for you guys participating that whether it’s gold or cryptocurrency or whatever, we don’t recommend it. But if you have it, this isn’t a call to go out and get rid of it. Just stop making it your primary strategy. All of us. You’re we’re in this together. We’re all working toward financial independence. If what you can do is focus that time, energy And resource on the idea that what does it take to have a satisfied life What is a good life does? How much money is enough? Those questions will pay far more dividends than any individual commodity we own. And we allow things to distract us whether it’s the gold commercial, or our favorite radio host bring it up, that it is going to fall apart in every financial tool, that’s all gold ends up being when it’s marketed to you as just a different financial tool. And what you have the ability to do, is instead Gird your balance sheet set aside a lot of money, make sure like Coreys grandfather, you have your life insurance in place to make sure that you have a lasting legacy. Gold by itself won’t deliver your future, Bitcoin by itself won’t deliver you to your future, the only one who will deliver to your futures you. Now with that, Corey, I think we’ve exhausted this pretty thoroughly is good, you could have great returns on gold. Heck, if you’d have bought gold at 1200, just a little bit ago, you’re up like, over 50%. And that’s really good. But you’re not up that much. If you still hold it. You haven’t recognized any of those wins, enjoy it, leave it in your safe, watch it from a distance, have it as your little bit of reserve if everything does fall apart. But at the end of the day, it will take you setting aside a lot of money having a disciplined investment strategy, and an awareness for you and your family about how much is enough. Anything core you want to send everybody off with today?

Cory 31:35

No, just if you’ve if you’ve enjoyed this episode, gotten some value from it, share it with someone because chances are someone else that you’ve talked to in the last week has some of these same thoughts. And that’s why we’re we’re doing this, we know that we won’t have the opportunity to sit down with every single person listening, but we can make a big impact for a lot of people. And if you do have questions, we’d like to have a chat with someone on our team, send an email to info at SFG way.com. And we can certainly help you do that. Or there’s a link in the show notes to schedule a 15 minute conversation to get the get the conversation started. Cool.

Unknown Speaker 32:13

And I just put

Paul 32:14

that email address right in the chat. So if anybody needs it wants to push on it. You got it right there for you, everyone. Happy New Year. 2021 is going to be great. And I will say I think that last year will give us new meaning to being able to say hindsight is 2020. And we hope this episode like all of our episodes have been a contribution to you being able to design and build a good life.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Transcribed by https://otter.ai


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Recorded using Switcher Studio: [email protected]